nice one! sorry to bring even more names to the table 🙈 but i think maybe back schultz stepover roll or sib backroll stepover (sib back stepoverroll if you want) 😄 thats my idea but i think it will always be tricky to talk about some of the variations with words

im also slightly leaning towards using fakie for backwards rolls, feels easier to say and somewhat clearer. saying reverse or even back makes my head spin a bit like what even is the regular version of this trick to refer to in order to know which one is the reverse one!? i mean some wheelwalks and rolls can naturally come backwards to begin with

i've kept saying back or backwards because of how its all about the ridein direction @ flip tricks. but if i really think about it it doesnt make sense in rolls to call something fakie forward rollingwrap just because of the runup, with tricks in motion its better to just take the motion of that direction and use the name imo 🤷 fakie coasts, fakie ww, fakie rolls and ridetricks

back to the names you asked about 😌 ludwig/X. This is another tricky name situation at least for how my brain works with tricks 😄 A backXroll isnt a forward Xroll in reverse, if you run a forward Xroll reverse you get like a 'fakie wolfgang' and vice versa and the same with ludwigs and schultzwalks

i guess im making an argument its good its not called reverseXroll at least 🤷 But its pretty established what Xrolls are back and forward, and it feels like the idea of ludwigroll is sticking in a similar way that its about 'threading the needle' with the foot regardless what direction you travel. so then my money is on the xrollingwrap thingy here. with a slight scepticism toward expanding this already confused grammar into stepoverrolls 😆🙈

i see exactly what you mean about rolls and their "reverse/back" versions not actually being the roll in reverse. If you play this video backwards, it is literally a (forward) ludwig stepover roll, but that doesn't mean that this roll is a reverse ludwig stepover, or possibly that means that it shouldn't be reverse ludwig stepover. Similar to how a reverse x rolling wrap in reverse looks like a ludwig roll

it's all so complicated lol

I like the description of ludwig roll as 'threading the needle.' It's good for rolls to be defined by something like that instead of just forward or back or reverse or whatever relative to another roll. So I agree that comparing this trick to an x rolling wrap makes more since, since an x rolling wrap would be defined as the leg going over the tire in front of the other leg, which in this case is what this roll is like

I like the idea of 'sib back stepover' but I think it would be more confusing to introduce a new kind of roll (SIB) than to connect it to another roll (such as x rolling wrap)

Thanks for the feedback, Ivar! Now I will try to learn reverse ludwig stepover! I gave it a try and it was a lot harder, but i think possible. these rolls are terrifying though because it seems so easy for the tire to roll out from under me when I have just one foot on the tire and both hands behind me holding the seat 😬

I completely agree with Ivar on most of the stuff. Reverse is the exact reversal of the movement. The word fakie ist in my opinion also missleading as from my understanding it originates both in skating and unicycling from the riding direction before and after the trick (not including the og "fakie flip", which to me is fakie riding with a forward flip but has been used in the past to describe a "fakie backflip"). That being said we use "back" for the rolls that just change the direction but not the feel of the roll. So for me it is definetly a variation of the backstepover roll. There is the transfer variant over the seat, the variant where the seat is in front of you and then the one you did if you only count the ones where the leg in the air goes in front of the other leg. Then there are the same 3 variants with the leg going behind the other leg. The "back ludwig stepover roll" would in my case be the variant holding your seat back as you did but then pushing your leg in between the leg on the tire and the frame like you would with the ludwig roll. The roll that is the most closely related to your stepover (stepping both in front of the seat and the other leg) to my knowledge doesnt have a name that has been agreed by everyone. I have seen videos by different people doing the trick. So we have had discussions on how to name it ourselves. So end of the monologue, I dont have a good answer to you as i think that the tricks related to your trick have naming issues themselves.

technically i would consider it a reverse ludwig stepover however because if you play it back I think that would fit but I dont like the idea of primarily naming tricks based on the reverse movement if the movement iteself looks and feels very different

for the rolling wrap the reverse naming makes sense, however there the back and reverse naming overlaps as there is no difference

stop you right on that 'riding direction before and after the trick' in skating. a fakie manual on the board is just a fakie manual cause of the stance through the manual no matter stance into or out of

maybe you knew this and only meant trick as in sudden trick and no manuals? however i wanna squeeze in another request that can we start saying fakie to coasts, and potentially all traveling tricks including rolls, and be clear about that riding direction before and after has no effect on the name on these?

ah I see. Then my skateboard knowledge doesnt go as far. I just know it from all the ollie tricks that they put fakie in front of the trick if they do the same trick but ride in our out in fakie stance, but maybe there is a difference between those types of tricks then? This would sound a bit confusing and I would argue for a solution which is the same no matter the trick type. Thats why we have been using the term "back" for all the tricks that go backwards during the trick and "fakie" for riding in and out of the trick. If we would use fakie for coasting backwards I feel this could create big overlaps as people already use "back" for most of these.

After all the discussion, I think reverse x rolling wrap makes the most sense for two reasons: first, it feels like a reverse x rolling wrap, and second, playing the video in reverse it looks like a Ludwig step over, but reverse rolls are never the literal reverse of their forward counterpart (for example, if we named them based on the literal reverse movement instead of the leg motion or feel of the trick, then what we call a reverse x rolling wrap would actually be a reverse Ludwig, and a reverse Wolfgang would be actually be a reverse inward x roll)

however, I think it would be helpful to add another component to the naming of rolls such as this. We should distinguish by saying which foot-crank position is at the beginning and end. So this roll would be inside-outside. However, I could do a “reverse x rolling wrap stepover” from outside to inside and it would still fall in the “x rolling wrap” definition

i was thinking about this for jelly rolls… I was trying a jelly roll stepover, and realized it would either be outside-outside or inside-inside. But those variations might have different names not related to jelly roll

🤦‍♀️

another perspective:

before you can even do fakie flips or fakie unispins or fakie hoptwists or whatever you'll have to get fakie riding

after that you might wanna get a fakie onefoot ride!? or a fakie onefootcoast... switching suddenly in any of these from the term fakie to backward is just inconsistent and confusing imo

to what Trey said (no reply option here :D): Youre talking about the roll in the video right? Because we have been talking about different stuff also :D. For me the roll in the video should be a variation of a backstepover roll with the added prefix that would describe the movement in front of the seat and in front of the other leg. Or are you talking about the reverse ludwig? I totally get what you are saying with the rolling wrap similarities, especially talking about the non stepover variant. But yeah other than finding a name I dont have any better technical sulution than naming it "front-front-fakie-stepover". In that case the naming of ivar might acutally help. To what Ivar said: Now I see what you mean. It start to make sense why you think of that. Sou you would use the term "back" only for static tricks and fakie tricks for all the moving tricks laterally on the ground? How would you make a distinction between riding forwards into a trick and then doing the trick forwards or backwards if you would make a distinction there? I can see where this would help but I could also see where this is confusing but a very interesting idea indeed!

no distinction for that is what im saying jan. its not hard to describe with a few words if you wanna do it for a skrrrt set or something, i think the only time its interesting is if you see it as a combo, trick onto or out of, or the (fakie) riding before is a trick in itself which transitions into the next trick, cause thats how it is in freestyle, and if i say half cab to forward scuff its easy to see whats going on right?

i just think anyone whos looking to do a fakie forw wheelwalk or anything like that as one trick has the wrong attentionspan for the trick, same with the rolls, thats a combo if anything

To Jan’s question- I was talking about the roll in the video… I was saying it could be something like “inside-outside reverse x rolling wrap stepover.” I do see what you mean though about naming it more like a back stepover, which is what Ivar was also considering in his first few messages in this discussion. So it would be something like SIB back stepover? How would we distinguish if the leg is going over the tire between the leg and seat (like Ludwig)or in front of the leg and seat (like x rw)

my solution to that which i started somewhere ~2020~ is to pick the smooth version and only do that one, thats why you never see me forward xroll or fakiewolfgang anymore unless its for a skrrrt set. its kinda what i tried to sell in to you with my combo of four stepovers last week trey 😅

but please keep sending the ones that are odd to me if youre feeling it 🙌 or maybe send this very stepover with a land? :p

forgot to say that but pablo's the only one that comes to my mind when i see this trick. you could try consulting him about the name. ⚠️WARNING: his mind is funky and gorgeous, trick naming might not get easier after a conversation with him

to trey: Yeah for me naming the backstepovers would look something like this, I think we agree on this: 1st: Is your foot placed on the tire in front or behind your saddle? (SIF or SIB) 2nd: Is your foot stepping in between leg and frame ("regular", so normal name "backstepover"), over the uni (Transfer), or outside of the foot ("wrapped", as you called it). About the name of the "wrapped" option we can discuss further but I dont hat the name tbh. So yeah for me it would be a "SIB wrapped backstepover roll"

To Ivar: Hahaha I get what you mean, in the end there are too many tricks to know the exact name of in my opinion so might aswell just stay to what feels good. However exploring all the variations also has some kind of fun in my opinion :D

So a ludwig roll in technical terms would be a "SIB X-roll" or a "SIB stepover-roll", because going between the frame and leg feels to be the "regular" option even though in most cases the "transfer" variant going with your leg over the saddle seems to be equally popular and been named "regular" aswell.

So Ben has made a point that maybe changes how I think about X rolls. He said that for him an X roll is not defined by going between leg and saddle but rather going in front of your leg all the time, so matter if did or sib. That would mean the trick trey describes would be a back sib stepoverroll and only for tricks such as Wolfgang or Ludwig's there is the need for another prefix. Is that understandable?

To me it is quite intriguing as this naming also more accurately represents the difficulty of the named tricks in my opinion

Definitely very interesting discussion. I’m pretty sure we broke the record on number of messages on a single post in skrrrt 😂 which I love 🤓 I do think the SIB/SIF variations are different from what has become the standard in naming now, but they make sense.

To Ivar: I HAVE landed the trick… I will have a video coming out at some point that has that trick in a combo 😁 but I will also see if I can add it to a sorry set for you